Mate De Saudade ([info]ryama) wrote in [info]buddhists,

Buddha Doctrine vs Pedophagus

I also came up with this during my medication, no, I mean meditation, in Central Park, Manhattan.


Gautama Siddhartha, a descendant of Surya(Sun), saw his own son Rahula as an obstacle, which was completely out of tune as a father. So, he abandoned Rahula and Yasodhara, i.e., ball and chain.

Why did Siddhartha do this? What was the real reason behind? When I took some psychology class, my professor told us that the Freudian theories didn't really have much credibility in academia anymore. But screw that. I would like to apply it to Siddhartha's situation.

Siddhartha wasn't too happy when his son was born. Probably he saw his son not only as an obstacle but also as a threat. But father seeing his son as a threat was nothing new. If we look around the world, we can find the Kronos myth in Greece. Kronos had an awful prophesy; one day his son would overthrow him, which completely freaked him out, and then he totally went crazy, eating his children one by one completely out of madness. But only Zeus could manage to escape by the skin of his teeth and defeated Kronos in the battle and came to take his place. Kronos' terror was ended by his own son. In India, King Bimbisara was confined by his own son Ajatashatru. Pumped up Ajatashatru also detained his mother and he almost had her executed but called it off at the last minute because his subordinates made desperate efforts to persuade him not to. The time of Siddhartha had many coups like this, so he also might have thought that he would have been facing the same fate if he didn't become a shramana. I would call this "the karma of phagus(eating)." Meat-eater is carnivore, so son-eater is filivore, and father-eater is patrivore. Child-eating is pedophagus. So, Kronos was carnivorous, filivorous, and pedophageal at the same time.

If Siddhartha had a daughter, he would never have imagined like that...at least in the patriarchal domain. But his first born turned out to be a boy. So, he had a sense of danger that one day he would be devoured by Rahula. As the descendant of Surya, he was scared to death that he would face the same fate that the other kings did. And most kings took preemptive action, extirpating their heirs before they were eaten alive.

"Kill before you get killed." That is the Bush Doctrine's notorious "preemptive action." And that has been recorded in many mythologies. Oedipus' father had a prophesy that he would be killed by Oedipus. So he ordered to have his own baby executed. But he couldn't resist the karma of pedophagus. He was eventually murdered by grown-up Oedipus. However, the patricidal Karma haunted Oedipus in turn, and finally the karma struck him, so he went blind and became a shramana. And many tragic heroes went through the same fate. Siddhartha didn't kill his father, but his real mother died of child birth. So, in a twisted sense, Siddhartha had the matricidal karma creeping up behind him, so he also knew that his grown up son would strike him down, so he found Rahula heliophageal, or "sun-eater-like." In fact, the word "solar eclipse" in Japanese(Chinese) is literally "Sun-eat."

Siddhartha must have been in a dilemma; whether he should kill Rahula and become a king, but he wouldn't be able to escape from the pedophageal karma, yet if he let Rahula go alive, he would be overthrown. Catch 22. I guess Siddhartha's hunger for power was very intense. He had an ambition to be the powerful king of India. Moreover, if he were with Rahula, Rahula would have developed the Oedipus complex, beginning to fall in love with Yasodhara and build hatred against Siddhartha, thus Rahula would have developed a motivation for patricide. That's why Siddhartha was on the verge of a nervous breakdown. He had enough of the phageal Karma. So the drastic measure he took was not homicide nor suicide but hemocide, to renounce his royal bloodline. Needless to say his decision making was the most unconventional for his time period which would flip the world upside down. That is what makes Siddhartha different from the other legendary kings.

In a Freudian sense, Rahula would have been killed by Siddhartha. Or, the other way around. Patriphageal. But by the time Rahula started realizing around the world, his father was not around already. Siddhartha was already a minstrel. So, Rahula didn't really develop Oedipus complex. He already monopolized his mother's love in the beginning without any enemy. In short, he was raised by a single mother. However, his search for his father must have decided the later course of his life since he grew up missing his father. His father who renounced him and his mother was not a royal family member anymore. He was no more an heir, for he had conceded the right to the throne to his relatives. So, Siddhartha had brought dishonor to his family. Who was this father? His father must have become a legend in Rahula's heart. That's why Rahula hoped to join the Sangha that his father opened. It was natural for him to do so. Siddhartha's decision making turned out to be all good.

Siddhartha ceased the karma of cannibalism by renunciation. He was the first prince in the world history who was able to change his predestination. There was a movie "Final Destination," which deals with how to avoid the advanced billing death. In short, how to manage to prolong life. Siddhartha's final destination was patrivore. So, father eats his son before eaten by his son, which is one way to prolong life, but no king has ever escaped from the karma of filicide. And the karma of eclipse could have lasted forever as eternal recurrence. However, Siddhartha destroyed the chain of samsara with the sacred sword. His action blew away this vicious karma, thus he was able to prolong his own life.

Moreover, for the time period of Siddhartha, Vedanta, a type of Upanishads, was a trend back then. According to this philosophy, heir, property, and the world are hindrances. That means you are the only master of yourself, and the others are just satellites revolving around you. In that sense, his son was a hindrance too. So, his son's presence might have been a threat to his position as the master. Or, he was fully aware of the carnivorous karma, so he devoted himself to Vedanta in order to open the gate for a solution. The general rule was that renunciation took place after your heir was old enough to succeed. So, he could have passed the heirloom without losing his honor. But, Siddharhta believed in the prophesy without any doubt, and moreover, he was megalomaniac seeing himself as the Sun, so he could never imagine himself giving up the throne for Rahula. So he was desperate. Then, in the middle of his desperation, he came to have an encounter with Upanishads. And it promised him that he would be the master no matter what, even if he were to lose power and money. In addition, Upanishads itself was nontraditional too. He might have seen the tradition itself as burdensome as the Karma, so he was completely immersed in Upanishads. Therefore, in spite of his young age, he totally ignored the tradition, and became a family-deserter. And as a military commander of the Sakya, he went AWOL, neglecting his duties as a leader. It was an ordinary course of events that kings who clung to their positions would be eaten by their own sons and lose everything. However, Siddhartha thought out differently and got lost from the future power struggle between him and his son.

He must have figured that it would be better off for him to renounce his heirship than becoming a king and later being overthrown. That's why he took the action. And it was innovative to do so at that time in India. From a self-preservation point of view, Siddhartha's decision was a measure to prolong his life to preserve his Atman.

The Bush Doctrine is "eat before you get eaten." Bush's final destination was a mushroom cloud, so he did anything he could to avoid it, by having his hands stained with the blood of Iraqis. But the Buddha Doctrine would be "yield before you get eaten." Or you let them know that you're not their prey. Heinous crocodiles don't prey on birds which regularly clean their teeth. They just open their mouths to let the birds clean. The same goes here; if you let go of power, who would see you as an enemy in power struggles?

Anyway, Siddhartha finally ceased his attachments and attained the enlightenment. And after few years, he and his son came to have a reunion, and put an end to the karma of phagus. But, Siddhartha's prophesy came true in the other form; the Sakyan genocide. Siddhartha and Rahula were able to get away from the karma, but not for the Sun tribe, the bloodline of Ishkuvaku(Okkaka). In fact, they couldn't destroy the karma of eclipse as an ethnic group. People who made renunciation were able to get away from the Flight 180 crash, but people who dedicated their lives to nationalism were gone with the wind. How did Siddhartha feel when he saw this tragedy? As the ex-crown prince of the exterminated tribe?

P.S.
Any stress that comes into play is all from nutriment as a requisite condition.
-Sn 3.12 (my emphasis)
However, the word "nutriment" is actually alimentation in a French version.
Toute angoisse qui entre en jeu provient toute entière de l'alimentation en tant que condition nécessaire.
(my emphasis)
And alimentation means "diet," so it is rather a process of eating than nutriment itself. Plus, the Spanish word is alimentación, which also means "diet." And the Japanese translation of 747 is also 食(shoku), means both "diet" and "food." So, it would say the meaning includes not only "nutriment" but also "eating." And of course, "eating" in Greek is phagus. So, I will rephrase it like this;
Any suferring that comes into play is all from phagus as a requisite condition.
Thus, phagus as karma and suffering as vipaka. Or phagus as pratitya and suffering as samutpada. Therefore, Siddhartha ended the phageal karma "with the cessation of phagus, there is no suffering coming into play" by renunciation.





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  • 25 comments

[info]nagasena

July 29 2006, 15:52:21 UTC 5 years ago

That was an entertaining read. I disagree with your assessment of Siddhartha's motivations for leaving home, but the amount of thought you put into this is impressive.

[info]ryama

July 29 2006, 16:56:39 UTC 5 years ago

Thank you, sage. I appreciate it.

[info]blogmemnoch

July 29 2006, 16:01:10 UTC 5 years ago

Maybe it is so, but maybe you are overcomplicating it...

In SN 42.11 Gandhabhaka (Bhadraka) Sutta explains the visible origin and passing away of suffering to a layman using the man's strong desire for his son and wife. Very similar to what Gautama must of have lived.

[info]blogmemnoch

July 29 2006, 16:05:50 UTC 5 years ago

However, the word "nutriment" is actually alimentation in a French version.

That website translates into french the already translated sutta of Access to Insight. A translation of a translation, so you cannot really use this as an argument for it could be adding significance to a word that didn't necessarily have that orginaly.

[info]ryama

July 29 2006, 16:49:42 UTC 5 years ago

Ok, blogmemnoch

Thank you. Yes, that's true. The references I used were pretty weak. So I instead found this one.

If you see 747, the original word is âhâras(food). I guess it is in Pali, isn't it? So, it's something to do with eating if you let me twist it. Then, I found the word ahara in Sanskrit can mean "eating" also. Now, I am able to justify my point, ain't I?

[info]ryama

July 29 2006, 16:54:33 UTC 5 years ago

Re: Ok, blogmemnoch

Oh and in Pali too.

[info]dustinashe

July 29 2006, 16:12:20 UTC 5 years ago

Interesting perception.

[info]thesandsabrase

July 29 2006, 16:38:56 UTC 5 years ago

While some of your eytomologies are questionable--since there seems to be a double translation issue--I think you have thought this through interestingly.

[info]saltcellar

July 29 2006, 17:28:16 UTC 5 years ago

Pardon me, but what does this have to do with the Buddha's doctrine?

[info]d_i_s_m_a_s

July 29 2006, 19:45:58 UTC 5 years ago

This community is "buddhists". Ie, it is a place where Buddhists post comments. This is not "Buddhist doctrine". This is not even "Buddhism".

If anything you shoule be asking ME why I'm here, not the poster.

[info]saltcellar

July 29 2006, 20:45:28 UTC 5 years ago

Actually, this is the largest buddhism comm on livejournal. In the userinfo it says:

User: buddhists (46641)

Name: The Buddhism Community

So apparently it's here for the sake of Buddhists discussing Buddhism. Buddhists on their own can discuss whatever they want.

While the poster clearly thought about his comment in depth, and the Buddha is a character in it, I just don't see the point. Does it serve a purpose or is it speculation for the sake of intellectual wanking. there is, however a community devoted to this type of thing.

pointlesscomm

[info]beginnermind

July 30 2006, 00:19:25 UTC 5 years ago

Also on that page:

Here is a community for those interested in the nature of this realization [the Buddha's realization under the Bodhi Tree]. Some may call themselves Buddhists, some may claim allegiance to different schools, sects, or lineages which have various thoughts about or at least means of expressing the nature of the Buddha's realization, some may be the merely curious. All are welcome.

Although I WOULD definitely encourage the poster to focus on practice and not worry about the Buddha's life too much, I wouldn't discourage the post ... how else for us to bring each other back to practice?

[info]d_i_s_m_a_s

July 30 2006, 01:02:36 UTC 5 years ago

How can you possibly not see the point in a thought about the motivations of the Buddha in home-leaving?

Whether the post is a joke notwithstanding, I fail to have a grip on how any Buddhist could wonder at the relevance of the Buddha's motivations in leaving his home. That's one of the goofiest things I've heard in this community for a long time.

[info]saltcellar

July 30 2006, 08:52:35 UTC 5 years ago

Look, I'm not trying to antagonize the poster, but the post is simply not necessary.

The historical details of the Siddartha Guatama's life are secondary to the practical application of his teachings. Does suffering exist? Yes, obviously. But is its cause fundamental ignorance and attachment to self? Can this suffering be alleviated through meditation and the eightfold path? If so, how should these teachings be applied? That is up for discussion, and makes up the basis of Buddhist debate. Also, being curious about the doctrine of karma or Buddhist tradition or skepticism of the path are all useful to understanding Buddhism in general and modern peoples' attitudes towards it.

Besides, even trained psychoanalysts make, at best, informed guesses as to the motivations of their patients, which are based generally on longstanding relationships of mutual consent and disclosure. How could a student with no professional experience accurately psychoanalyze someone he's never met who existed 2500 years ago? Even if his assertions were somehow magically accurate, would that have an impact on the validity and practicality of the teachings?

Might the time he spent thinking this up and typing it out have been better spent?

[info]d_i_s_m_a_s

July 31 2006, 00:07:35 UTC 5 years ago

Hm. I think you're being silly.

It's about the Buddha; it's about a central event of the Buddha's life; it's about the cause of that event, which is the appreciation of the prevalence of suffering, which means it deals with an aspect of the first noble truth.

If what you're objecting to is that you seem to think he wasted his time in posting it, I could just as easily turn the point around on you right here, seeing as how I see no reason why people could not say the same thing about objecting to online posts in online communities, especially when the poster used a cut tag to make it possible to easily skip it. If you think he wasted his time, you're wasting your time even more. I should think you ought to be concerned about your own use of time before you concern yourself with how others use theirs.

[info]saltcellar

July 31 2006, 00:20:13 UTC 5 years ago

You're right. I am wasting my time. Touche.

[info]d_i_s_m_a_s

July 31 2006, 00:11:28 UTC 5 years ago

Also I'd address the idea that the historical details of the Buddha's life are somehow secondary to his teachings. In fact I would say they are quite related because his teachings stem from the way he experienced that life.

[info]dustinashe

July 30 2006, 03:05:07 UTC 5 years ago

(friendly)
Okay I'll bite. why?
I get a picture of a used to be ,but now is not ,kinda scenario.
I've read part of your journal and I see where you are at. You can answer me on my journal ,I will set an invitation, If you would care to talk religion with me.

[info]d_i_s_m_a_s

July 30 2006, 03:28:27 UTC 5 years ago

Well, that wasn't meant to be bait, but I guess what your scenario is would describe me.

[info]redslime

July 29 2006, 19:05:33 UTC 5 years ago

meditation can be dangerous


that has to be one of the most convoluted thoughts I have ever come across. It was kind of entertaining for a bit though.

[info]lifegivingsword

July 29 2006, 20:42:52 UTC 5 years ago

Many thanks for this. Nothing like a lil possible heresy (if that's possible in the Dharma) to stir things up and make people truly question things ;-) I find such ocurrences refreshing every so often. And I am amazed at the level of thought that went into this as well.

Well done. and Thank you.

[info]kan_zen

July 29 2006, 22:21:57 UTC 5 years ago

Wow! What an imagination!

Based on my understanding, Siddhartha was very much in love with his wife, child, and extravagant lifestyle. But, he became so obsessed by his desire to learn the true meaning of life, that he was left with no choice other than to leave his family and home. The wonderful twist in this story that really does has to do with father and son is that his father, in order to avoid Siddhartha's becoming a holy man as was prophesized, altered his environment so as to eliminate suffering from his experience. Had he not done so and allowed his son to lead a normal life, it would have been no big deal for Siddhartha to have wittnessed sickness, old age and death. Kind of a self fulfilling prophesy (so to speak). Ironic, eh?

[info]ryama

July 30 2006, 23:43:32 UTC 5 years ago

Very good point. Yes, it's interesting to see from Shuddodana's point of view. The prophesy was that Shuddodana's son would become either the ruler of the world or the great shramana. But becoming shramana that young was unconventional. I think the former was fulfilled by Alexander the Great instead.

But becoming the ruler of India was unrealistic though. Sakya was just a small tribal region that belonged to Kosala, their suzerain, which was big, and even Ramayana records the hero Ramachandra was a prince of Kosala.

One time King Bimbisara of Magadha offered Siddhartha a military force, maybe to lead a campaign against Kosala, but he declined it. Since he was a friend of both kings of Kosala and Magadha. Anyway, Kosala eventually exterminated the Sayka tribe, but Kosala itself was later invaded by Magadha and annexed to the Magadhan Empire.

But who knows? Alexander managed to conquer the world although starting from a tiny regional kingdom Macedonia. Macedonia was outside the Greek mainstream. Sakya was also away from the Aryan mainstream too, they were already eating rice as a staple. Thus, Shuddodana the Clean Rice King. If Siddhartha were to become a military commander, he might have conquered the whole India, starting from his own little kingdom. If that was the case, Alexander might have become the Buddha in turn. We would be chanting in Greek instead of Pali and Sanskrit.

[info]beginnermind

July 30 2006, 00:25:40 UTC 5 years ago

I read that Sid went to look at his child once more, but that his wife was sleeping holding the babe. Knowing that he couldn't bring himself to leave if he had to speak to his wife again, he thought, no, I'll find the way to end their suffering, then I'll see them again.

But it's just a story. I've heard that the Buddha's son eventually became a disciple, too.

Fun post, yes, though I've never had much love for Siggie's theories in today's world, let alone in 500 BC.*grin*

Now, shut up and sit down! You're needed.:)

[info]lifegivingsword

July 30 2006, 07:20:22 UTC 5 years ago

I find myself posing the same question to this community that I pose to Christians who get their hackles up about the new alternative theories of the life of Christ:

First, we have no concrete historical evidence to prove EITHER version of the story. The accepted version is only that because it was the one that's been passed down for all this time. But all too often history is conveniently altered for the sake of conforming with belief, so we can't take oral tradition as a basis for truth.

But on to the question. Would the proving of this new theory of the historical Buddha's life in any way affect the validity of his teachings? Would the fact that the Buddha slipped up in his formative years of practice (and before that even) in any way prevent us from following the path that, later in life, led him to enlightenment? I don't think so. But perhaps some of you do. If so, why?
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