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September 12th, 2013


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sumanathenovice
08:30 pm - Complete translation of the Dhammasaṅgaṇi
Once, again the internet archive comes through with something wonderful and unexpected!

Here is a link to the first book of the Theravada Abhidhamma Pitaka.

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From:jayyy
Date:September 13th, 2013 10:17 pm (UTC)
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Thank you.

If there is a few things that you would say are most valuable that you learned from this Work, what would they be?

God Bless,
JC
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From:sumanathenovice
Date:September 15th, 2013 04:14 am (UTC)
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Being able to see and classify the various types of citta in my own life has been enormously helpful for practice as well has having an understanding of anatta in terms of ultimate reality in addition to the suttanta method.
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From:jayyy
Date:October 9th, 2013 06:56 am (UTC)
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Very good then. You got more from it than I did at a glance.

Do you have any merit gainings from God for your practice? You are talking about ultimate reality -- so tell me, what siddhi have you to work with?
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From:sumanathenovice
Date:October 9th, 2013 09:30 pm (UTC)
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The Abhidhamma is very difficult going. I read U Kyaw Khine's translation in 2 vol before finding that one on-line. I'll admit I was very hesitant about Rhys-David's trans as I've had some very bad experience with her work (I don't recommend her trans of Khp or Dhp), but only a little bit of it sank in on the first reading if only because I wasn't sure what I was reading. Abhidhamma takes much time and meditation.

I recommend the following works before diving into the third Basket (this is the order in which I read them which greatly helped to facilitate a logical and systematic understanding: "Dhamma Theory, The: Philosophical Cornerstone of the Abhidhamma" by Y. Karunadasa, "Guide Through the Abhidhamma Pitaka" by Nyanatiloka Thera, "Psychology and Philosophy of Buddhism, The: An Introduction to the Abhidhamma" by Dr. W.F. Jayasuriya, next a combination of books, Bhikkhu Bodhi's "Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma" and "Process of Consciousness and Matter" by Ven. Rewata Dhamma, and last would be NKG Mendis' "Abhidhamma in Practice."

I'm not sure what you're asking with your questions. God has nothing to do with my practice (given that Buddhism is "atheistic" in relation to most other religions as they regard God). As far as merit goes, I refer you to Snp 3.2. I don't know what you're asking with the second question as "siddhi" is primarily a vedantic term and has little to do with Buddhism (I had to consult my PED as I was unfamiliar with the term). I recommend the explanation of conventional reality and ultimate reality in the Manual.
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From:jayyy
Date:October 10th, 2013 07:25 am (UTC)
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Ah yes, without God in your practice there is no way to achieve a Boddhisatvic state, and thus no way to attain the siddhis.

The Mahasihanada Sutta is a basic discourse on this, which you should read. Here is a link to a copy:

http://www.vipassana.com/canon/majjhima/mn12.php

Thanks again for your work and keep it up. :-)
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From:sumanathenovice
Date:October 10th, 2013 09:05 pm (UTC)
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I must ask what you mean by "God" as the word as used by all theistic religions has no place in Buddhism (see for instance the three gross views, AN 3.61, as well as MN 49 for the origin of the wrong view of believing in a creator god, cf DN 11 & 24). It is should be obvious from the context that "god" in the case of the suttas is not referring to a monist or self-sufficient being but the devas who, though possessed of superior beauty and life-spans are nonetheless subject to the final depredations of suffering (death and re-birth) and incapable of enlightenment.

As for accomplishments, as I take the term siddhi from the context I could find, they will come with mental development. Vipassana and a focus on the paramis is all that is required for achievement of supramundane states of consciousness as well as psychic abilities. Take for instance Sn 773, Dhp 276, and the Blessed One's final words to his disciples in DN 16.

I must also point out that I've read the entire Tipitaka in translation and some of it in Pali (my pali isn't great yet, but I'm working on it), and I'm not sure you're reading that one right per sé (I will not deny you any inspiration you draw from it; that is your own however it is possible to take a declaration in the canon the wrong way. see my blog entry here for just one example) as it is more about the Buddha refuting the wrong and pernicious views of a former follower (though it is interesting to note that Sunakkhatta doesn't deny the soteriology of dhamma) by discussing the powers of an Enlightened One.

Thank you for the kind words, by the way. It is wonderful to have a dhamma discussion partner. How are you?

Edited at 2013-10-10 09:06 pm (UTC)
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From:jayyy
Date:October 11th, 2013 03:36 pm (UTC)
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Here is the secret to all mankind, that I will share with you since you may be able to understand. It requires a knowledge of all religions of the world, which are one, so I hope you can find this and not adopt a single-minded view, else you will never know truth in this lifetime.

Enjoy, this is our true story.


-*-

The Son of Man

"Manu is a title accorded to a progenitor of humanity."

This name we in modern times would know as "Adam", or "Adamanu" when decrypted.


"Vaivasvata Manu, whose original name was Satyavrata"

This is the great son of Adam (Manu), and Satyavra translates decrypted into Shiva (blue God), which is re-encrypted as Shakya.

Hence, the Buddah's name, Shakyamuni, translates into "Shiva, son of Manu".

Which explains why Buddah came to me in dream as Shiva.

Also explains how the line of Jesus connects to Buddah through Adam (Manu).

So the Eastern Star mentioned in the bible truly is the lineage of the Christ, Buddah, of the originator of man, Adam.

By that point the encryptions are too deep to dispell, especially since Mesopotamia began the Western history. The seven sages of Mesopotamia, who judge the Mesopotamian God-Pantion, are actually the 7 who rode with mankind on the arc from the flood (which we call in the west, Noah's Ark).

All that is Buddah is Shiva; all the secrets and poses of Shiva are Buddah, and so too are they then Christ, the Knower and Giver of God.

Love&Peace,
JC



PS: You can clearly see how the avatars of Shiva is the god Vishnu by the very name "Vaivasvata".

Spelling it backwards with a little insight, you get the very etymology of the word 'Avatar'.

Tags: adam -- shiva -- buddah -- jesus -- ??;], jason costa
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From:sumanathenovice
Date:October 11th, 2013 09:59 pm (UTC)
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"Sakyamuni" means "sage of the Sakyans" and like "Buddha" is an honorific.

The Buddha's name, going back to an earlier topic, is Siddhattha Gotama (Siddhartha Gautama in Sanskrit). Gotama is his family name, but his personal name "Siddattha" comes from our word Siddhi + attha or "one who has completed his task."

Also, with regards to a "progenitor of humanity," what about SN 15.3 (among others)? "From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on."

Please understand, I'm not trying to be sectarian by construing "equal" or "superior" or "inferior" (SN 1.20) nor am I looking to debate (see Snp 4.3), but I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here. There is much to admire in all faith traditions (one of my favorite bible verses is James 4:17, "If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn’t do it, it is sin for them.") however that is to be understood in light of the Vinaya's identification of four kinds of Dhamma statements: those spoken by the Blessed One, his disciples, non-Buddhist sages, and heavenly beings.

Thank you for the interesting response. :-)
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From:jayyy
Date:October 13th, 2013 06:49 pm (UTC)
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Siddharta - "Heart of the Siddhi" -> Sage/Saint Heart

I am telling you an ultimate truth, as you are a human and can not understand the Word, yet you quote words you have read and translated, and claim meaning on to them.

Since you claim translational capability, if these should be sent forward in time they must be verified as coming from a saint-understanding.

Interestingly, I also have a Christian quoting passages to Jesus Christ about Jesus Christ! Because he read it in the bible, he thinks he can tell the Lord what the Lord's Word is! We call them "bible thumpers" here in the US. Similarly, you are doing the same here with the Buddah. Muslims give a perfect example of what happens when you follow books of the flesh instead of those same books in the knowledge-light of God.

Religion will lead you to the path of the spirit, but your books if not read from the world of the spirit will all be read for naught. The best they can do is teach you morality, which I am glad you have garnered from them. Eventually you will want to complete the purpose of your life, which is to find and be with God.

Read again carefully the Sutta that I posted previously, and use your head.

Think:

Why would Siddharta the Buddah, Gotama, say on one hand that he "Despises miracles" when asked by a layman to perform one, yet on this other hand create an entire Sutta dedicated to telling the Holy Ones what miracles will and can be performed by an attained being?

He keeps the people who read only flesh from the mundane world in a box, so that they will never grow until they have mastered morality and come to be with God (passed their tests in this life). Yet at the same time, he opens the gateway to truth by revealing it without bias.

As for you, you have no reason to debate me; I am attained already, and it is only respect and earnesty that you need show here in order to progress yourself. Debate is for boxes. Progress, think progress.

Love,
JC







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From:sumanathenovice
Date:October 13th, 2013 08:53 pm (UTC)
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You say, "Eventually you will want to complete the purpose of your life, which is to find and be with God."

Again, you don't define what you mean by god and you describe an attainment as union with God which sounds much more like Vedanta than the dhamma-vinaya.

Also, I take my purpose as practicing for the end of suffering for myself and all beings (AN 11.1, 8.25).

You said, also, "Since you claim translational capability, if these should be sent forward in time they must be verified as coming from a saint-understanding."

Why would that be? I have claimed nothing but conventional knowledge, but the world needs both dhamma experts and meditators (AN 6.46). It is for my own sake that I can help others that I've endeavored to learn Pali. There are many works simply unavailable in English.

As for your main question:

"Why would Siddharta the Buddah, Gotama, say on one hand that he "Despises miracles" when asked by a layman to perform one, yet on this other hand create an entire Sutta dedicated to telling the Holy Ones what miracles will and can be performed by an attained being?"

Answering this will take a bit of exegesis.

First, think of the principal subject involved: Sunakkhatta. Consider his accusations in order.

1) The Buddha has no distinctive states of human knowledge and powers (those are sometimes the same things as we will see)

2) That the Buddha's teachings on suffering based merely on logic and reason (shades of AN 3.65) and not on living experience of nibbana.

Next, when the Buddha responds to Sunakkhatta's spurious accusations, consider the way in which he replied, that is, the first and in this case most important.

1) Ten powers with regards attainment. None of them are supernormal as we think of them.

2) A repudiation that the Buddha possesses knowledge in a way that can lead to his disparagement.

Now, with that in mind, we turn our views towards Digha Nikaya 11 where the Buddha likewise mentions 3 sets of supernormal attainments. It is instructive here to note the order in which they are in, the last in this case being the most important given how the Buddha addressed their use among lay followers. Consider this in light of an identical sentiment expressed in AN 3.60

1) Psychic powers, of which it is said, "Then someone who has faith and conviction in him sees him reading the minds... of other beings... He reports this to someone who has no faith and no conviction, telling him, 'Isn't it awesome. Isn't it astounding, how great the power, how great the prowess of this contemplative. Just now I saw him reading the minds... of other beings...'

"Then the person without faith, without conviction, would say to the person with faith and with conviction: 'Sir, there is a charm called the Manika charm by which the monk read the minds... of other beings...' What do you think, Kevatta — isn't that what the man without faith, without conviction, would say to the man with faith and with conviction?"

"Yes, lord, that's just what he would say."

"Seeing this drawback to the miracle of telepathy, Kevatta, I feel horrified, humiliated, and disgusted with the miracle of telepathy.

2) Telepathic powers, about which it is said, "Then someone who has faith and conviction in him sees him reading the minds... of other beings... He reports this to someone who has no faith and no conviction, telling him, 'Isn't it awesome. Isn't it astounding, how great the power, how great the prowess of this contemplative. Just now I saw him reading the minds... of other beings...'

"Then the person without faith, without conviction, would say to the person with faith and with conviction: 'Sir, there is a charm called the Manika charm by which the monk read the minds... of other beings...' What do you think, Kevatta — isn't that what the man without faith, without conviction, would say to the man with faith and with conviction?"

"Yes, lord, that's just what he would say."

"Seeing this drawback to the miracle of telepathy, Kevatta, I feel horrified, humiliated, and disgusted with the miracle of telepathy.

3) Instructional powers, about which none of that is said.

Further examples of psychic miracles as well as a note from the Vinaya will bring the answer to a close.

(continued)
[User Picture]
From:sumanathenovice
Date:October 13th, 2013 08:55 pm (UTC)
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Consider SN 41.4 where an arahant displays a feat of psychic powers to a lay follower. Following that, he has to leave because, as mentioned in Vinaya 5.8.2 (here I quote from Thanissaro Bhikkhu's 2 volume "Buddhist Monastic Code"

From Vol 1 p 321 "A related rule at Cv.V.8.2 states that to display psychic powers to lay people is a dukkaṭa. In the origin story leading up to that rule, the Buddha levels strong criticism at such an act: "Just as a woman might expose her vagina for a miserable wooden māsaka coin, so too have you displayed a superior human state, a wonder of psychic power, to lay people for the sake of a miserable wooden bowl."

To display psychic powers to anyone who is not a lay person, though, is no offense."


And from Vol 2 pp 147 - 149 "Displaying psychic powers. In AN III.61, the Buddha tells a brahman that many hundreds of his bhikkhu disciples are endowed with psychic powers. Nevertheless, he forbade them from displaying those powers to householders. The origin story to this prohibition — which we cited briefly in connection with Pc 8 — shows why:

Now at that time a costly block of sandalwood, from sandalwood heartwood, accrued to the Rājagaha financier. The thought occurred to him, "What if I were to have an alms bowl carved from this block of sandalwood? The chips will be for my own enjoyment, and I'll give the bowl as a gift." So the financier, having had a bowl carved from the block of sandalwood, having looped a string around it, having hung it from the top of a bamboo pole, having had the bamboo pole fastened on top of a series of bamboo poles, one on top of another, announced: "Any brahman or contemplative who is a worthy one (arahant) with psychic powers: Fetch down the bowl and it is given to you."

Then Pūraṇa Kassapa went to the Rājagaha financier and, on arrival, said to him, "Because I am a worthy one with psychic powers, give me the bowl." "If, venerable sir, you are a worthy one with psychic powers, fetch down the bowl and it is given to you."

Then Makkali Gosāla ... Ajita Kesakambalin ... Pakudha Kaccāyana ... Sañjaya Belaṭṭhaputta ... Nigaṇṭha Nāṭaputta went to the Rājagaha financier and, on arrival, said to him, "Because I am a worthy one with psychic powers, give me the bowl." "If, venerable sir, you are a worthy one with psychic powers, fetch down the bowl and it is given to you."

Now at that time Ven. Mahā Moggallāna and Ven. Piṇḍola Bhāradvāja, each having dressed early in the morning, each taking his robes and bowl, had gone into Rājagaha for alms. Ven. Piṇḍola Bhāradvāja was a worthy one with psychic powers, and Ven. Mahā Moggallāna was a worthy one with psychic powers (§). Then Ven. Piṇḍola Bhāradvāja said to Ven. Mahā Moggallāna: "Go, friend Moggallāna, and fetch down the bowl. That bowl is yours." Then Ven. Mahā Moggallāna said to Ven. Piṇḍola Bhāradvāja: "Go, friend Bhāradvāja, and fetch down the bowl. That bowl is yours."

So Ven. Piṇḍola Bhāradvāja, rising up into the sky, took the bowl and circled three times around Rājagaha. Now at that time the Rājagaha financier was standing in his house compound with his wife and children, paying homage with his hands palm-to-palm over his heart, (saying,) "May Master Bhāradvāja land right here in our house compound." So Ven. Piṇḍola Bhāradvāja landed in the financier's house compound. Then the financier, having taken the bowl from Ven. Piṇḍola Bhāradvāja's hand, having filled it with costly non-staple foods, presented it to Ven. Piṇḍola Bhāradvāja. Ven. Piṇḍola Bhāradvāja, taking the bowl, returned to the monastery.

People, hearing that "Master Piṇḍola Bhāradvāja, they say, has fetched down the financier's bowl," followed right after him, making a shrill noise, a great noise. The Blessed One, hearing the shrill noise, the great noise, asked Ven. Ānanda, "Ānanda, what is that shrill noise, that great noise?"

"Ven. Piṇḍola Bhāradvāja has fetched down the Rājagaha financier's bowl, venerable sir. People, hearing that 'Ven. Piṇḍola Bhāradvāja, they say, has fetched down the bowl of the financier,' are following right after him, making a shrill noise, a great noise. That is the shrill noise, the great noise, that the Blessed One (hears)."

(continued)
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From:sumanathenovice
Date:October 13th, 2013 08:56 pm (UTC)
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Then the Blessed One, with regard to this cause, to this incident, had the Community of bhikkhus convened and questioned Ven. Piṇḍola Bhāradvāja: "Is it true, as they say, Bhāradvāja, that you fetched down the financier's bowl?"

"Yes, venerable sir."

The Awakened One, the Blessed One, rebuked him: "It's not appropriate, Bhāradvāja, not fitting for a contemplative, improper, and not to be done. How can you display a superior human state, a wonder of psychic power, to lay people for the sake of a miserable wooden bowl? Just as a woman might expose her sexual organ for the sake of a miserable wooden coin, so too have you displayed a superior human state, a wonder of psychic power, to lay people for the sake of a miserable wooden bowl."

So, considering the Buddha's teachings as being solely about suffering and the end of suffering (SN 22.86 among many other places), Sunakkhatta's requests for miracles are inappropriate especially since a: they are irrelevant to the suffering which b: he does not dispute! This is not to say that bhikkhus endowed with supernormal abilities don't exist, but that, as we know, one doesn't go forth for the sake of powers (or for answers to the unanswered, the 10 questions (MN 63, 72), and the rebirth questions (MN 2), but to end suffering.

When a monk displays powers to lay follower, it could have some some startling and unexpected consequences. They will be beset by lay followers who wish to make more merit by giving to him than others, or perhaps the lay follower who sees the display won't believe it. The only sure miraculous display is a display of teaching (Ud 6.1). Hence why the Buddha was reluctant about their use (though doing so can have great effect. think of Mahakassapa and Angulimala).

That is why the sutta is structured the way it is and concerns the subject matter it does related in the way it is. The Buddha had a two-fold goal there based on who had raised the objection and the subject of objection.

Thanks for the excellent question. How are you today?
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From:jayyy
Date:October 14th, 2013 05:53 pm (UTC)
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I feel good. I have two more words for you, then I will get back to this thoroughly:

ex·e·ge·sis [ek-si-jee-sis] Show IPA
noun, plural ex·e·ge·ses [ek-si-jee-seez] Show IPA .
critical explanation or interpretation of a text or portion of a text, especially of the Bible.

"From Jesus" is the meaning of this word.

As for the auspicious signs, this one was created just for you, please don't be insulted but this is God's decision about your consciousness:

trepan \trih-PAN\ , noun:
1. a person who ensnares or entraps others.
2. a stratagem; a trap.

Trepan is of unknown origin, though it might have come from thieves' slang. The noun describing a person entered English in the mid-1600s, followed shortly after by the verb.


Love,
JC
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From:jayyy
Date:October 14th, 2013 06:53 pm (UTC)
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The Buddah here is saying (if this text is truth) that you should not use your saintly super-phenomenal power to garner worldly worth.

What he wants is for that his "supermen" monks, given their newfound truth of sainthood (spiritual powers of heaven), do not take material advantage of the worldly sufferers.

Example:

I can read your mind, so I use that to swindle you out of your money so I can go buy a new car.

This is not acceptable, and would detriment and demerit your sainthood, leading to a fall from God and a loss of such supra-natural power.

Though since supra-natural power is not the purpose of sainthood, but rather alleviating the suffering of all beings, it may or may not be neither here nor there.



As for you, you said you took the vow and wish to end the suffering of all beings, so let me ask you this:

What have you done out of the normal way to help ease the suffering of the insects of the earth who come to you?

It may be any insect, a fly buzzing on your arm, a slug crossing the road, an inchworm speaking to you from the tree, or a spider with his web directly blocking your path.

What have you done for them by your vow?


Love,
JC



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